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A-Frame Contact criteria

  • Mar. 5th, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Venture_6 months
I've been giving this a lot of thought lately as to how I want Keeper's bottom of the a-frame contact criteria to look. Since he's recovering from a shoulder injury I've decided that I don't want him stopping on the bottom anymore with a 2o2o. I'd like to teach him to run it. I don't think I'm going to get into too much trouble with a running a-frame while still maintaining a stop on the dogwalk and teeter. I had been, before he got hurt, working on a quick release which meant that he'd still go to the bottom and as soon as he touched I'd release. Well, if I'm late then he's going to get some front leg compression and I'm hoping to avoid that with a running a-frame.

So, here's the dilemma....

1. How should I go about this??? Put the a-frame back down low and start targeting out away from it and then slowly start raising it up seems like a logical solution. This would also ease him back onto it.

2. Or should I teach a rear toe touch where he's mostly off of it? This would still require some sorta stopping on the bottom.

Any of you have any ideas??? I'd really appreciate it.

Thx in advance!!!
  • Mood: contemplative

Comments

( 33 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]biggmellon wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 12:36 am (UTC)
I tried converting to a running aframe with Ricky after he injured himself and what I found was that his shoulder impact actually was worse with the running. Because of how long he had run the aframe with a touch it would have taken me so many reps working a running aframe that it didn't seem worth it to me to put his body thru the reps it takes to achieve reliable running contacts. So I went to a four on the floor since it was very easy for me to teach it to him in far fewer reps so my theory now is the less aframes he has to do the better so it's not perfect- sometimes he stops with his back feet still a little bit on before he downs but they way he does the aframe has changed and he does it with his body very low to the aframe and his weight shifted back which seems much less impacting than the 2o/2o and the running. If he were a younger dog perhaps I would have taken the time & reps and to do it all over I would have probably taught a rear toe or running but the four on the floor was the one I could get with the least amount of practice on the aframe.
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[info]sclmarm wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 01:24 am (UTC)
I was really wondering this too... to many reps to teach something new. In retraining you'll have the default to a 2o2o, jumping off the contact, both of which cause added impact. I think the impact of that far outweighs a 2o2o every once in awhile. Let's say to retrain for a running frame I have to do 25 frames a week, five of which the dog hit his 2o2o and 5 where he jumped over the yellow or I practice agility twice a week and ask for a quick release, my dog does 5-7 aframes(which to me seems like a lot), two of which he hit the 2o2o. Which is going to cause more wear and tear? I'd also watch how hard he hits the upside. Just my two cents:)
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 02:31 am (UTC)
Good point about the up contact. Where I teach we have the hoops on the a-frame to get them to start up low.

And also I don't want to do a lot reps on the frame to retrain....I want less time on the a-frame and the weaves.

See this is why I asked you guys...
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[info]moodypdx wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:06 pm (UTC)
My .02$;) I have found that hoops on the up contact do nothing for the dog outside of practice. The hoops are great when practicing because it does help the dog collect before approaching the obstacle. What I have found though is that is very difficult to mark the behavior you are looking for i.e. collection before approaching the a-frame when using hoops. Remove the hoops and the dog continues to slam into the frame.,,,,

I have had much better success with a stride regulator on the ground before the a-frame. I can mark and reward for the collection before the dog actually gets onto the a-frame. Basically I am training a wait, easy, extra stride before performing the obstacle. I have recently played around with this method in the weave poles as well. I have been using a jump bar on the ground and it works quite well. Nova has a wait, but because she has been out for so long she needed a physical reminder;)

So through training the behavior you can take it on the road;) More difficult to haver the hoops tag along;)
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 04:28 pm (UTC)
Thanks, T....appreciate it.

Both of these methods Debbie was playing around with in class. She finally settled on the hoops. I think the hoops play into muscle memory trying to get the dog to stride up the frame the same way everytime. No marking required. Where with the stride regualtors I can see where you could mark for the xtra stride.

Cole's mom was using the stride regulators in class and they were working great then Debbie went to the hoops. I'm wondering what Cole's Mom is using now?

I have time and when he can finally start doing the frame again I'll play around with it.

And the up can be just as damaging as the down.

I do know is that he won't be doing a lot of reps on the frame or in the weaves.

Interesting observation....thx.
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 02:28 am (UTC)
In his early years of competing I'd often get a 4 on the floor mostly because he was going so blasted fast that by the time he stopped he was all the way into the dirt/grass and then he'd lie down because he knew he was suppose to be stopping. I have to say that if I don't prematurely say his release word he will come all the way thru the bottom.

So, did you just have Ricky come all the way thru and then down him???

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[info]biggmellon wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:30 am (UTC)
I trained the running down away from the aframe- waiting until he would drop on a dime with me running full speed before bringing it to the aframe. Then I back chained by having him at the bottom of the aframe and releasing him & giving him his drop command. Then I just started a full aframe giving him a release command at the bottom & immediately a drop. It seemed to just make sense to him. Now I no longer give the release just the drop command when he is on the aframe and he goes right to his position. But like I said he sometimes reverts & does a 2o/2o anyway, either way they are less impact then just releasing and trying for a running.
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:39 am (UTC)
Ok, I got that. I can be running and tell him to lie down and he'll drop. But I don't think I want him always dropping into a down position at the bottom before I release him.

Hmmm....
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[info]biggmellon wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:50 am (UTC)
the "drop" has now taken the place of "touch" & he gets released from that- so basically I now say "Climb, Drop,ok" instead of "climb, touch, ok". It's not the most ideal but it was the easiest way for me to change his aframe with the least amount of aframes. I didn't want an extended 2o/2o because his issue was his back and I didn't want him coming down stretching out - I wanted him all the way off ideally or really low with a rounded back.
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[info]multisylldogs wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:20 pm (UTC)
I am with Big Mellon on this. The only addition I would make is to not have him do a complete Aframe each time, but teach him to hop on from the side, as Susan Garrett explains in her Shaping Success book. That way he learns the behaviour without having to do the entire frame. The only part he needs to do is the end part. ML
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 06:46 pm (UTC)
Thanks for your input. I had planned on just having him come onto the side.

See you tonight???
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 06:46 pm (UTC)
Thanks for your input. I had planned on just having him come onto the side.

See you tonight???
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[info]hycaliber wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 01:24 am (UTC)
I would start low and ask for a 2o2o with barely the back feet touching (the back is level.) You'll hear it from other trainers... it's VERY hard if not impossible to retrain a 2o2o contact into a running contact. Too much muscle memory. By starting low and constantly asking for an extension at the bottom you'll have a good contact, and you can still early release when needed.

JM2C :)
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 02:33 am (UTC)
So basically I'm getting that I probably don't even want to re-train this because of all the reps needed to re-train.

He has a very good a-frame...maybe I should just ditch this idea and not mess with it.
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[info]hycaliber wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 02:57 am (UTC)
Not ditch it, just alter your criteria. Ask for a more extended behavior on the bottom... you can teach that with just a board on a coffee table or a set of stairs for a while... so he's not pounding the frame. If you watch some of my videos you can see that I usually practice with a lower A-frame most of the time...

Actually rehab is probably the best time to work on the little things... when I had ankle surgery I was able to put in all of Jeep's flatwork foundation... :)
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:37 am (UTC)
I mean ditch the running contact idea. I could lower the a-frame down and do this in the backyard inbetween rain storms...LOL!!!

I actually taught Keeper his teeter in the garage with the teeter up on the grooming table. So I was teaching two things at once. 1st to run straight up the teeter without stopping until he got to the end which was up on the table. Then he'd turn around and run to the end and stop at the end of the board.

And I must say he has an awesome teeter. Sometimes it is scary because he gets to the end of the board sometimes before it barely starts to tip. We've had some flyoffs in the early years but not too many.
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[info]barjor wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:37 am (UTC)
After I switched Speck's running contact to a 2o/2o, I changed the criteria a bit to be more 1rto, and asked him to extend more on the contact by doing alot of jumping on the end and holding the treat out more as he got in position, and encouraging him to extend but not giving him the treat if he pulled his leg off the contact. He also has a tendency to lay down at the end. He sometimes dribbles off the end but if that happens, I ask him to lie down and we go back and do the sequence again.
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:43 am (UTC)
This is sounding like what Hycaliber is suggesting. I like the 1rto idea and the extension out away from the frame.

Heather's London and Rosie's Razor have great extension off the contacts with a flat back. That's where I'm leaning.

I'm glad that USDAA frame has lowered. And I also think I'll be doing more AKC for a couple of reasons. Frame is even lower (I think) plus less runs per day.

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[info]barjor wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 04:00 am (UTC)
And also, I would toss the treat out so he had to stretch a bit. It was a bit tricky to figure out how far to encourage the stretch and what would pull him off....
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 04:03 am (UTC)
You know Keeper and how he runs....do you think this is something I should be messing with???

I don't plan on doing as few a-frames as I can in practice so should I just leave him alone and release like I have been???
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[info]brisbeethewhite wrote:
Mar. 7th, 2008 05:24 am (UTC)
London's contact performance is a re-train. I trained him at home on a stair to offer the behavior of stretching while hanging on with the rear feet, then I used that to help both get that postition on the end of the board (by never releasing until he came down farther off the board) as well as to break creepy contacts.
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[info]nosemovie wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 06:13 pm (UTC)
I love how Razor's back looks on the A and DW... I have no idea if that's something you can "incorporate" into an already learned contact behavior. I hate the way Ruben's butt is so high on the A-frame (especially w/ his shoulder issues)... so it's very possible I'll be pulling out the travel board to try to re-train or modify his contact. Thing is.... when I start asking for something else w/ him, he just goes into a drop! figures.. Last thing I need w/ Ruben is for him to lay down on course!
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[info]agilityfrk wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 03:51 am (UTC)
I have to agree with everyone else, if you can't just let go of the contact criteria all together (my Starlet isn't really a leaper, so I've just let it go), then encourage him to extend. Teaching a new method could require more reps than just altering your present criteria. Now, talk to me in a couple months and I'll let you know how extensive grid work helps for Rachel's box method. Of course, that's Vic, who doesn't know anything else when it comes to the frame. Heck, I have nothing to lose with Starlet, maybe I'll use her for an experiment with retraining a 2o/2o to a running with the box (I've supervised a few dogs moving from the 2o/2o to a running with the box, but personally think more grid would have helped...).
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 04:05 am (UTC)
I'm interested in know more about this grid work with box training. I'll be getting a new puppy next year so any new ideas I'd love to know more about.
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[info]agilityfrk wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 04:20 am (UTC)
I'm keeping a pretty good video journal of Vic's boxwork, since I've moved to the grid. I've done WAY more grid proofing then anyone I know and more than Rachel thinks is necessary. I'm doing it because it's not on a frame and the mistakes made are exactly what I see dogs make on the actual frame. I also know stride regulators are kind of a dirty word with the box theory, but I think of it as stride regulation with a giant foot target for that last elusive hit. I really like the action I see Vic doing through it with the grid and in a couple weeks Rachel and I are going to put him over his first frame (obviously very low). I've made the boxwork videos private, since it's not my theory and I'm doing things that aren't being advised (recently worked on front crosses and extreme approaches). If you're interested, either let me know your youtube name or give me an email and I'll add you to the friends list. :-)
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 04:35 am (UTC)
Oh, I'm interested. e-mail addy is agilitybc@msn.com and thanks for sharing!!
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[info]agilityfrk wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 04:55 am (UTC)
No worries, when youtube finishes fixing itself, I'll add you to it. Rachel is coming out with a DVD which will be much better than I could explain about the theory. I like the concept and have been very excited by what has shown up in the grid. Getting him on an actual frame will be very interesting.
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[info]agilityfrk wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 05:05 pm (UTC)
You're added. :-)
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[info]agilitybc wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 06:52 pm (UTC)
Cool...thanks.

I've been watching them on and off while I'm suppose to be working. So, the stride regulators will then be transferred to the frame, right???? And the dog will come down the frame over the stride regulators and then run thru the box at the end, right??? I'm assuming you'll start with the frame low and work it up over a period of time. Will the box move out away from the frame as the frame goes higher or does it stay at the bottom up against the frame?

You can e-mail privately if you prefer.
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[info]agilityfrk wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 08:57 pm (UTC)
It's a miracle my blackberry is getting reception, so I'll keep it short. Speed bumps don't go on frame. The box is the same size as the contact zone and goes over it when we move to the frame. Middle jump of grid represents the apex of the frame. Does this make more sense? I do plan on having Vic do a flat frame with speed bumps, but once incline is added bumps come off and this is not a step I've been advised to do, but I don't see the harm.
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[info]barjor wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 06:18 pm (UTC)
Oh me too! I would love to see what you are doing!

agilek9s@gmail.com

Edited at 2008-03-06 06:19 pm (UTC)
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[info]cflyrun wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 07:18 pm (UTC)
I'm curious as well... jumpstartagility @ gmail dot com
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[info]insanedogowner wrote:
Mar. 6th, 2008 07:13 pm (UTC)
I have been converting Gale from a 2o2o for a looooong time now - starting with stride regulators, then the box, then both. Boy - if you want to take this private, we can chat! cetrulo7@aol.com
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